tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post116047116040701445..comments2014-06-08T14:35:09.104+10:00Comments on Missionary Insights: Calvinism cont..Terry McGovernhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160591121790888762006-10-12T04:25:00.000+10:002006-10-12T04:25:00.000+10:00Why do so many Calvinists accuse or charge non-Cal...Why do so many Calvinists accuse or charge non-Calvinists with not researching out the matter fully? We could have read ALL the same books, done ALL the same research, and come to the conclusion that Calvinism is not Biblical - but because we are not Calvinists, somehow we don't know what we are talking about and have not studied out the issue...<BR/><BR/>It is also weird how when exposing certain statements or positions by varius Calvinists, there is always the charge of misrepresenting them - YET, so many Calvinists differ in varying degrees from one another on the points of Calvinism. "That is not what I believe - you are misrepresenting us..." - even though the actual statement was quoted completely in context and it was exactly what the particular author was stating.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I have read enough to know that I do not see Calvinism in the Bible and that it contradicts so many passages and principles in God's Word (for example, having the lost regenerated BEFORE they hear the Gospel and are born again - as if REgeneration and born AGAIN meant different things...).. I have read some of Calvinism's works - and have an utter destestation of reading a man who contradicts the Bible over and over, who quotes the father of Catholicism as the main former of his beliefs, who wrote and published his greatest theological work with 2 years of being saved (with the first year STILL being in the Catholic church!) - what do ANYONE of us know of the scope of theology as a <I>brand new babe</I> in Christ - especially when coming out of a false religious background?!? I have no desire to read more books in defense of Calvinism when I see from the Bible alone it doesn't line up - it is not a hobby horse of mine, so I will read it as I come across it (for example, in my friend's blog here), but will not scour the Net and bookstores looking for more (especially more in defense of it). That's me, feel free to disagree.<BR/><BR/>I do not hate Calvinists, but I do have a problem with the elite mentality - "you are not one of us, so you could <I>never</I> truly understand the issue..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160557177270225992006-10-11T18:59:00.000+10:002006-10-11T18:59:00.000+10:00Kent,I don't want to open up a new discussion thre...Kent,<BR/><BR/>I don't want to open up a new discussion thread about Cloud's shortcomings on this matter, especially since this thread seems to be going places. Suffice to say this, Cloud makes many statements about Calvinism without any backing whatsoever. In his spoken sermon on Calvinism - Who Is The Enemy? he publicly declares that not only does Calvinism believe that faith is a work, but that this is actually a "foundational Calvinistic doctrine" - but gives absolutely no proof - no quotes (say) from the Westminster Confession of Faith which has a whole chapter entitled "Saving Faith" nor any quotations from Calvin nor Spurgeon nor any other leading Calvinist. I have never heard any Calvinist describe faith as a work and furthermore I have never heard any other anti Calvinist charge us with such a monstrosity. Just Cloud spoofing in some pulpit in Australia. Unfortunately anti Calvinist critics like Cloud are 10 a penny and I'm pretty sure that Terry wants to be taken seriously in his criticisms. Calvinists are quite happy to defend their views, but we are under no obligation to answer what he thinks Calvinism teaches rather than its real contents. <BR/><BR/>Spurgeon was most scathing on this matter and rightly so: "The most infamous allegations have been brought against us, and sometimes, I must fear, by men who knew them to be utterly untrue: and, to this day, there are many of our opponents, who, when they run short of matter, invent and make for themselves a man of straw, call that John Calvin and then shoot all their arrows at it. We are not come here to defend your man of straw — shoot at it or burn it as you will, and, if it suit your convenience, still oppose doctrines which were never taught, and rail at fictions which, save in your own brain, were never in existence." (C.H. Spurgeon Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit: 7:550) Very hard words that I don't want to be applicable either to you, Terry or indeed any critic of Calvinism. All I have asked for is verifiable proof of his statements that will warrant the time it takes to respond on our part. <BR/><BR/>If you want more on this, drop me an email on: cfpc@esatclear.ie and this will keep this thread clear. Thanks for your time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160539613431138692006-10-11T14:06:00.000+10:002006-10-11T14:06:00.000+10:00Steve,It would appear from your comment that we ar...Steve,<BR/><BR/>It would appear from your comment that we are in agreement on my statments concerning our sin being removed and the rightesousness of God. Although, I do not believe we have "changed nature" as a result, but a new nature as relsult. The old nature is still present, of course, and is still wicked. (Romans 6,7,8)<BR/><BR/>In the next post, I do bring up the fact that our sin was imputed to Jesus and His righteousness was imputed to us.<BR/><BR/>The next post is finshed, but I will not be posting for a few hours. I want people to read this post first.<BR/><BR/>Ron,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for coming to my blog! I truly appreciate you praying for me! I found your comments very encouraging.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160539119780997062006-10-11T13:58:00.000+10:002006-10-11T13:58:00.000+10:00Steve, love hopeth all things. Colin doesn't mind...Steve, love hopeth all things. Colin doesn't mind agreeing with something Scripture. Love rejoiceth in the truth.<BR/><BR/>Colin, My experience of reading Cloud on Calvin is that he directly quotes Calvin. My experience from reading Calvin is that he regularly contradicts himself. You can quote him in context and Calvinists will use another quote in direct contradiction to what he wrote. It allows them to pick and choose what Calvin believed. I would rather sort out what the Bible says and believe it then to attempt to figure out what various brands of Calvinists believed.<BR/><BR/>Thanks Ron.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160531089170991182006-10-11T11:44:00.000+10:002006-10-11T11:44:00.000+10:00I found your other site and will be praying that t...I found your other site and will be praying that the Lord will open the doors for you to purchase your house or to provide for you in some other glorious way. God bless you and your beautiful growing family. <BR/><BR/>May God bless you and keep you,<BR/>RonRonKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297654202504994941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160530164497314292006-10-11T11:29:00.000+10:002006-10-11T11:29:00.000+10:00Hello sir,I am a calvinist seminary student. I wan...Hello sir,<BR/>I am a calvinist seminary student. I wanted to say that first. That is not why I am writing. I came across your blog through a link from a calvinist friendly website. I would like you to know that, as a curious seminary student, i came to see but certainly not to argue. I want to say thank you for your service to the Gospel and your leadership in spreading the good news. I will not be asking any questions or criticizing your post but will be praying for you. I pray that God will keep you pure and give you opportunities to plant many seeds and tend a fruitful ministry that will see hundreds and thousands come to know the amazing grace of our God and honor the name of Jesus Christ with their lives, displaying the humility, guts and character you have been given all through the Holy Spirit's power. Praise God for his working in our lives, that he allows us, fallen, battered, defeated apart from his Son to spread the only news worth hearing. The Good news of his love, his judgement and his Son who saves us through his rightousness. PRAISE GOD! Let everything else be dross that is refined away.RonKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297654202504994941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160519984537202692006-10-11T08:39:00.000+10:002006-10-11T08:39:00.000+10:00What do you mean by"our sin is removed"and what do...What do you mean by<BR/><BR/>"our sin is removed"<BR/><BR/>and what do you mean by<BR/><BR/>"we receive the righteousness of God"<BR/><BR/>Jesus paid the penalty for our sin. The punishment that would be due is removed, reckoned to Christ. The sin nature is changed, but we continue to sin. Our sin is still with us, both as we continue to sin and as we deal with the consequences of our sin. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, how do you see imputation? How do you define it? Is it really infusion? You need to better define both of these statements, because I may agree with what you say, but only because I define "we receive the righteousness of God" to mean imputation, and "our sin is removed" as a changed nature and the imputation of our sin to Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160493622876170222006-10-11T01:20:00.000+10:002006-10-11T01:20:00.000+10:00HiAs a Calvinist, I am interested in what you have...Hi<BR/><BR/>As a Calvinist, I am interested in what you have to say. One thing I have noticed though...you write like David Cloud. Am I right in saying that he is your source material? There's nothing wrong in such a practice if he is, but Cloud isn't noted for giving references direct from definitive Calvinist sources (e.g. the major Church Confessions) and for giving us what he *thinks* Calvinism is. Without being patronising, I find this is a common trait in some of the anti Calvinistic circles. It will become evident how deeply you have researched your subject. If you want a serious and honest discussion, then I suggest that you do a good job and back up your statements with verifiable and definitive quotes. Otherwise, you will rise no higher than the David Clouds, Dave Hunts etc., of this world and we ight as well stick to them. I am interested in how you view perseverance of the saints. <BR/><BR/>Yes, as a Calvinist, I agree with your statement as it stands.<BR/><BR/>Colin Maxwell<BR/>(Calvinist and Missionary to the lost in the Republic of Ireland)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160491931914948132006-10-11T00:52:00.000+10:002006-10-11T00:52:00.000+10:00I look forward to reading your next post. One can...I look forward to reading your next post. One cannot argue what you've written thus far as you've quoted Scripture after Scripture showing how our perfect Saviour took on our sin so we may receive His righteousness. I'm glad this is so because Rom. 7:18 says that in our flesh dwells NO good thing! I'd be a gonner otherwise!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553369602514390035noreply@blogger.com