tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post116056089092946535..comments2014-06-08T14:35:09.104+10:00Comments on Missionary Insights: Perseverance of the SaintsTerry McGovernhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-57180401009953355652006-12-02T13:39:00.000+10:002006-12-02T13:39:00.000+10:00Colin,
I have enjoyed the debate as well. I am s...Colin,<br /><br />I have enjoyed the debate as well. I am sure when I post on the next area of Calvinsim we can debate again!<br /><br />I believe, I will next address the "T" of the TULIP.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-73403782938808349642006-12-02T13:35:00.000+10:002006-12-02T13:35:00.000+10:00Colin,
I did not recieve your comment from the bl...Colin,<br /><br />I did not recieve your comment from the blog, just the copy you sent via email. I am not sure what happened, but I have switched to blogger beta this week, so maybey that affected it. <br /><br />Here is Colin's comment:<br /><br />Colin Maxwell said ...<br /><br />Hi Terry, I'm glad that you have been able to make it back again, although with the break away and bearing in mind all that has been said, it is hard to get back into the way again of our closely argued debate. I can see us having to agree to disagree on this matter and so these will (I trust) be my last few thoughts on what was an enjoyable and rancour free debate. If you wish to have the last word - seeing you commenced the debate - that's up to you. Bearing in mind that I am summing up my thoughts:<br /><br />1) Calvinists believe that those who truly and repent the gospel are eternally saved and will never be lost because:<br /><br />[i] They were chosen unto salvation in all its different aspects (justification, regeneration, pardon, adoption, sanctification, glorification etc.,) by the eternal decree of God which cannot be overthrown or frustrated. Every last one of the elect of God will infallibly make it home to Heaven and none, absolutely none, will be lost. Calvinists believe that such election is entirely unconditional and solely the work of God, this does not leave man room to frustrate it, either knowingly or otherwise. Note: Such election does not make man either a robot nor rob him of his personal responsibility before God. (I have highlighted this last statement as I don't want it to be lost in any future debates, if such occur.) But all the elect will be gathered safely home. <br /><br />[ii] If Calvinists use phrases like "Left to myself..." they are only speaking hypothetically, since (strictly speaking) Christians are not left to themselves. They are using a hypothetical situation acknowledging their own inability to either save or keep themselves. Normally, this rhetorical device is seen for what it truly is - a manner of speaking. Sadly, this has not been the case here and it has been left to bear weight it was never intended to do so. <br /><br />[iii] If we do not differentiate the various components of "salvation" i.e. justification, sanctification and glorification, then we are going to run into big trouble. When Paul said that being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved [future tense] from wrath through Him (Romans 5:9) he was not denying that he had been justified in a past action (with continuous, indeed eternal, effect) nor was he denying the present ongoing process of sanctification (dying daily unto sin) but affirming His future glorification - He would reach glory without incurring the wrath of God. When I used the phrase above that we are perseverance makes our salvation effectual, it was strictly (as very carefully explained) in the context of our sanctification. It was are not overcoming the devil or at least seeking to do so, then we are not being sanctified. I do not back away from this statement as understood in the matter of sanctification. I do not hold, nor do I argue that our persevering in any way is the cause of or a contributing factor in, our justification before God. This is based entirely, 100% on what Christ has done for us. <br /><br />[iv] All the sins of the Christian - committed before and after his conversion, have been laid on Christ. The only sin for which there is no pardon is (obviously enough) the unpardonable sin. None of the elect of God will ever commit that sin. The fact that all his sins have been laid on Christ should not be used by any professing believer as an excuse for him to do what he wants. It is rather the spur and the means whereby he can live a holy life unto God, as becoming one who professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ. <br /><br />[v] I agree with your pastoral approach to one who would take the outrageous position above. <br /><br />Thanks for debating these issues with me in a civil and Christian manner. <br /><br />Colin.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-55994060146976301162006-11-29T12:36:00.000+10:002006-11-29T12:36:00.000+10:00Colin, sorry it has taken me awhile, but I was una...Colin, sorry it has taken me awhile, but I was unable to get online. Hopefully your still around.<br /><br /><br />Colin said, <br />“What would your approach be to someone who came along and said: "I called upon the name of the Lord for salvation 10 years ago in a gospel meeting, but I have lived in gross sin ever since. I still curse and swear and get violent and chea etc.,t, but neverthless I am saved!" Would you say to such a one: "That's OK! It would be better if you give these things up and show evidence of salvation, but even if you don't, you can fall into those gross sins (and more and worse) for the rest of your life, and those sins are not imputed to you?" I find it hard to believe that you would say that, but until you clarify the above quotation, then I am left wondering.”<br /><br />First, anyone who is truly saved, can never lose their salvation regardless of their actions. They are justified before God, and will not have any sin imputed unto them again. (Even gross immoral sins.) Yes, it is possible for me to fall into gross immoral sin.<br /><br />Now, as to the person you describe above, there is no way I would tell him he was fine because he prayed a prayer 10 years ago. I would explain to him, simply praying a prayer saves no one. That it is faith that saves. I would tell him if he called on the Lord without true faith it was nothing. I would then explain to him a true Christian is a new creature in Christ as a result of salvation. A true Christian will desire to follow the Lord and change their life. I would continue, based on his own testimony, telling him he does not show any evidence of being a Christian. As a matter fact he shows every evidence of being a lost man. I would tell him not to trust in a obviously vain profession he made 10 years earlier. To repent and place his faith in Jesus Christ. <br /><br />Colin, I have read much about Calvinism over many years. Calvinism teaches perseverance does play an effectual role in salvation. You yourself admitted this earlier, but have since backed down. I really like some of what you wrote in your last comment about eternal security, but the fact is Calvinism does not leave it there. I wish it did. <br /><br /> Remember what Sproul said in my originally post, “In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. (“Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation”?)<br /><br />That view is mainstream Calvinistic teaching on perseverance of the saints by Calvinists. That statement from Sproul is COMPLETELY unscriptual and is the aspect of “perseverance of the saints” I am attacking. It is wrong. God does not allow me to persevere so that I can be eternally saved, or not lose my justification that has already taken place. He gives me the strength to have victory over the world the flesh and the devil, because I am His child now. He has already given me eternal life.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1163520199619063562006-11-15T02:03:00.000+10:002006-11-15T02:03:00.000+10:00Terry, I think you are putting the cart before the...Terry, I think you are putting the cart before the horse as regards what I believe. My argument is NOT that perseverance leads to eternal security, but that eternal security leads to perseverance. Read it again as I have written it. I am secure and so (as a direct consequence -not a cause or contributing factor, but as a direct and gracious consequence) I persevere. If the Christian persevering does not come from the fact that He is eternally secure (A/ Because God has decreed His salvation from before the foundation of the world B/ Christ has effectually died for his sins and taken them away C/ Christ's righteousness has been eternally imputed to his account D/ The Spirit of God dwells forever in His heart) then where does it come from? <BR/><BR/>I don't want to get over pernickety about words, but you say "Even if I could fall into gross sin the rest of my life" - the obvious implication is that you couldn't. Is this what you mean when you use this phrase? Or could you have easily written, "Even if I did fall into gross sin etc.," <BR/><BR/>What would your approach be to someone who came along and said: "I called upon the name of the Lord for salvation 10 years ago in a gospel meeting, but I have lived in gross sin ever since. I still curse and swear and get violent and chea etc.,t, but neverthless I am saved!" Would you say to such a one: "That's OK! It would be better if you give these things up and show evidence of salvation, but even if you don't, you can fall into those gross sins (and more and worse) for the rest of your life, and those sins are not imputed to you?" I find it hard to believe that you would say that, but until you clarify the above quotation, then I am left wondering.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1163406512115369652006-11-13T18:28:00.000+10:002006-11-13T18:28:00.000+10:00Colin,You never answer the scriptural arguments I ...Colin,<BR/><BR/>You never answer the scriptural arguments I provide showing the problems with the Calvinism’s teaching on perseverance of the saints! I have to wonder if you read my arguments at all! For instance you said we agree on this:<BR/><BR/>“We agree that Christians persevere unto the end because they are eternally secure (therefore they can never lose their eternal life.)”<BR/><BR/>WE DO NOT agree on this.<BR/><BR/>The statement you made is unscriptural and is the very point of the “P” that I am showing to be unscriptural. <BR/><BR/>Let me make this CLEAR. The Bible DOES NOT teach that I can never lose my salvation because of perseverance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>I CAN NEVER AGAIN have sin imputed unto me. THAT is WHY I am eternally secure in Christ. Even if I could fall into gross sin for the rest of my life, it is IMPOSSIBLE for that sin to be imputed unto me!!!! The righteousness of Christ has ALREADY been imputed unto me. Perseverance HAS NOTHING to do with salvation. The fact that I am in a new creature in Christ is only evidence. <BR/><BR/>To sum it up, again, We are NOT eternally secure because of perseverance. Teaching thus adds works to salvation.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1163172628978875592006-11-11T01:30:00.000+10:002006-11-11T01:30:00.000+10:00Hi Terry,Thanks for your response to my comments. ...Hi Terry,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your response to my comments. Again, we are basically agreed on this matter, although there are a couple of lose ends which could do with being tied up. <BR/><BR/>[i] Calvinists likewise believe in the present possession of eternal life. You rightly quote John 3:36 and a consultation of the Calvinist commentators will show that they teach what you are saying. Jamison, Fausset and Brown do so. I quote (EMPHASIS MINE):<BR/><BR/>"hath everlasting life — ALREADY HAS IT. (See on Joh_3:18 and see on Joh_5:24).<BR/>shall not see life — The contrast here is striking: The one HAS ALREADY A LIFE THAT WILL ENDURE FOR EVER - the other not only has it not now, but shall never have it - never see it." <BR/>Matthew Henry likewise: "True believers, EVEN NOW, HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; NOT ONLY THEY SHALL HAVE IT HEREAFTER, BUT THEY HAVE IT NOW."<BR/><BR/>I forbear to quote to any further to prove the point. <BR/><BR/>[ii] The use of the future tense in salvation should not be used to deny its use also in the present. Paul wrote: And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (Romans 13:11) Does Paul deny that he had a present possession of salvation? We know he doesn't. How then is it progressively "nearer" than when at that initial moment of saving faith? Answer: because salvation in this case is a reference to that part of salvation which we call glorification. The part is put for the whole. Likewise if the WCF use the word "shall be eternally saved" then they are referring to the future crowning occasion of their salvation i.e. glorification. Calvinists believe that Christians are already, totally and unchangeably justified, are being (present, ongoing sense) sanctified and (one day, yet future) will be glorified i.e. in Heaven. This is our common evangelical belief. <BR/>[iii] Why not read my statement (“the saint will can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”) as follows: "[Calvinists] believe that they will persevere unto the end because they are secure?" That's the position that I and all other Calvinists whom I know take.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I am surprised that you have first raised this particular issue and have persisted in it. Any debate that I have had with Non Calvinists over this 5th point has normally been with those who take the Arminian position i.e. that the elect can fall away and be eventually damned. As I was researching for this answer, I remembered some words which David Cloud (one of your men) wrote. In an early edition of his "Calvinism - Who is the Enemy?" (where he was expressing his opposition) he took the time to list what he called: Some Good Things About Calvinism. He wrote: <BR/><BR/><BR/>"Though I do not agree with Calvinist theology, I can readily admit that there are many good things about Calvinism, especially if it is contrasted with the shallow, man-centered theology and evangelism that is so popular today. Four things come to mind readily:<BR/><BR/>3. Calvinism gives eternal security to the believer. Calvinism promises eternal security to the believer, because it knows that (1) salvation is entirely of God's grace and thus depends nothing whatsoever on man's puny works whether good or bad, (2) God has elected and ordained the saved person to a glorious eternal inheritance, and (3) the saved persevere in the faith through the effective working of the indwelling Holy Spirit. In this it is right on target.<BR/><BR/>4. Calvinism teaches that the elect will give evidence of their calling. The Calvinist knows that salvation produces a dramatic change in a person's life, and in this he is right on target. Any "salvation" that does not result in a change of life and direction and thinking and purpose is not a biblical salvation." <BR/><BR/>To sum up:<BR/><BR/>1) We seem to be agreed on the matter of the justification of the Believer.<BR/>2) We agree that eternal life is the present possession of the Believer.<BR/>3) We agree that Christians persevere unto the end because they are eternally secure (therefore they can never lose their eternal life.)<BR/>4) References to a future salvation refers to the glorification of the Christians and does not detract from his past or present experiences<BR/>5) Perseverance is indeed a work and is only an evidence of eternal life - saving faith always shows itself by persevering unto the end.<BR/>6) Others, who basically take your overall position regarding to Calvinism, nevertheless basically agree with the Calvinistic position on this matter of the Perseverance of the Saints. I quote Cloud and I know that I could get others if needs be.<BR/><BR/>I must leave it here. Colin Maxwell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1163028536245281782006-11-09T09:28:00.000+10:002006-11-09T09:28:00.000+10:00Colin,We are arguing your belief about salvation i...Colin,<BR/><BR/>We are arguing your belief about salvation itself, and not just the justification part. I know what you believe about justification. The problem lies with what you believe concerning progressive sanctification and what roles it plays in relation to salvation.<BR/><BR/>Here is a statement from you, “If by salvation, you mean "sanctification" then, "Yes, I DO believe that perseverance plays an effectual role in salvation." How can you say I am addressing a straw man!? I am addressing exactly what you believe.<BR/><BR/>Calvinist believe that if God did not give a persevering faith they could fall away. They believe they are eternally secure because they will persevere until the end. Here is your statement.<BR/><BR/>“the saint will can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”<BR/><BR/><BR/>Why can the saint neither “totally nor finally fall away” according to this statement, because of “perseverance to the end”. Scripturally incorrect. I will not fall away, because I will NEVER again have sin imputed unto me. Rom 4:8 THAT IS WHY WE ARE ETERNALLY SECURE!<BR/><BR/>ALSO,<BR/>Notice the future tense of salvation in this sentence from your comment about the WCF. “BE eternally saved”. That too is scripturally incorrect! I am eternally saved! It is not that I will “be” eternally saved.<BR/><BR/>(John 3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.<BR/><BR/>I have eternal life! It is NOT something I am waiting for pending my perseverance. What I tried to do with my post and comments was to try and get you to see how your belief in justification does not line up with what you believe about progressive sanctification. If we are justified, then we ARE eternally saved regardless of perseverance. Perseverance is a work and is ONLY evidence of eternal life.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1162718995508771922006-11-05T19:29:00.000+10:002006-11-05T19:29:00.000+10:00Terry, We both know that Calvinists put perseveran...Terry, We both know that Calvinists put perseverance under the sanctification part of salvation. If I read you right, you think that Calvinists introduce perseverance into the justification end of things i.e. in your own words "all my sins are already paid for". However, there is nothing in the Calvinistic Confession (WCF) section under Perseverance which teaches that - a strange omission indeed if it were true - because it is a vital subject. This leaves me wondering then if the WCF under Justification makes up this supposed lack. What do I find there? The Larger Catechism tackles the matter of justification by faith on a number of questions, including the following. I have CAPITALISED the relevant parts as they relate to this controversy for emphasis:<BR/><BR/>Question 70: What is justification?<BR/>Answer: Justification is an act of God's free grace unto sinners, in which he pardons all their sins, accepts and accounts their persons righteous in his sight; NOT FOR ANYTHING WROUGHT IN THEM, OR DONE BY THEM, but ONLY for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone.<BR/><BR/>Question 71: How is justification an act of God's free grace?<BR/>Answer: Although Christ, by his obedience and death, did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in the behalf of them that are justified; yet inasmuch as God accepts the satisfaction from a surety, which he might have demanded of them, and did provide this surety, his own only Son, imputing his righteousness to them, and REQURING NOTHING OF THEM FOR THEIR JUSTIFICATION BUT FAITH, which also is his gift, THEIR JUSTIFICATION IS TO THEM OF FREE GRACE.<BR/><BR/>Question 72: What is justifying faith?<BR/>Answer: Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assents to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receives and rests upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.<BR/><BR/>Question 73: How does faith justify a sinner in the sight of God?<BR/>Answer: Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, NOT BECAUSE OF THOSE OTHER GRACES WHICH DO ALWAYS ACCOMPANY IT, OR OF GOOD WORKS THAT ARE THE FRUITS OF IT, OR ANY ACT THEREOF, WHERE IMPUTED TO HIM FOR HIS JUSTIFICATION; but only as it is an instrument by which he receives and applies Christ and his righteousness.<BR/><BR/>If we go back to the WCF section on Perseverance, once the Calvinist states that the saint will can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, it tells us what this perseverance depends upon. It denies that it depends upon their own free will, but that it flows from the immutable decree of election, based alone on the unchangeable love of the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and interecession of Christ, the abiding of the Holy Spirit and seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace along with all that is certain and infallible in that. To have our salvation hinge on our perseverance (as you insist Calvinists believe) flies in the face of what our Confession clearly teaches. <BR/><BR/>I accept that there are several cases here of cutting and pasting, but this is due to the seriousness of the charge and (thankfully) the fact that the WCF men were so careful to state their case accurately. We believe that the other graces always accompany justification (as evidence) and good works are the fruit of it, but Q73 makes it abundantly clear, that they are NOT THE CAUSE (and therefore are not effectual, as you keep arguing) in the justification of the sinner. Faith is the instrument - the cause is Christ and His righteousness. <BR/><BR/>I think the danger here from your point of view (I say this kindly) is that you might well be fighting straw men who do not exist in reality. You cannot show me from the WCF (which was the basis of the 1689 Baptist Confession) where Calvinists teach what *you* say they teach.Colin Maxwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02632698769785766168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1162196199883862322006-10-30T18:16:00.000+10:002006-10-30T18:16:00.000+10:00Hello Colin,I have read some statements by Calvini...Hello Colin,<BR/><BR/>I have read some statements by Calvinist that I agree with concerning perseverance of the saints. However, as you and I both know, Calvinism DOES teach perseverance is essential/effectual in salvation. This is scripturally incorrect. I fully understand what aspect of salvation (sanctification) Calvinist put perseverance under. Like I said to begin with, the problem lies with a lack of understanding as to what takes place when a person is saved. Perseverance has NO effectual workings in regards to salvation. It is ONLY evidence. I am eternally saved already. Why? Because ALL my sins are already paid for. Therefore I can NEVER lose my salvation. To teach perseverance plays an effectual role is teaching works salvation.<BR/><BR/>I think in my two post, as well as a few of my previous comments, I demonstrated how salvation works and why we are eternally saved.<BR/><BR/>As long as you believe perseverance plays an effectual role we will not agree. If you cease believing it pays an effectual role, you would be a 4 point Calvinist. :)Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1162156196204739812006-10-30T07:09:00.000+10:002006-10-30T07:09:00.000+10:00Terry,As I was writing some concluding remarks on ...Terry,<BR/><BR/>As I was writing some concluding remarks on our debate on the Perseverance of the Saints on the webpage which I set aside on our church Website http://www.corkfpc.com/mcgoverncalvinism.html I decided to look and see what the Calvinistic Westminster Confession of Faith declared on this very issue. Without necessarily agreeing with it all, yet I am sure that you will see nothing there that suggests that the people of God are able to work for their salvation as charged. <BR/><BR/>I don't particularly want to open up the whole debate again, especially if you consider it closed, but I felt it worth while drawing attention to the WCF. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith says the same thing. <BR/><BR/>Colin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1161299618424839652006-10-20T09:13:00.000+10:002006-10-20T09:13:00.000+10:00Colin,If you would like your second comment publis...Colin,<BR/><BR/>If you would like your second comment published let me know. My guess is you thought your first one did not take because I enabled "moderate comments." (I noticed the second comment was pretty much the same as the first.)<BR/><BR/>(The traffic at my blog has picked up substantially. As a result, I enabled comment moderation. Before enabling it, I waited until I thought this discussion was over.)<BR/><BR/>I am waiting to hear back from my brother as to what part of Ireland. My family was Catholic though. I was the first in the family to accept the Lord.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1161283024528711982006-10-20T04:37:00.000+10:002006-10-20T04:37:00.000+10:00Terry,I wish you would use the more defining words...Terry,<BR/><BR/>I wish you would use the more defining words of "justification" or "sanctification" when you talk about "salvation" otherwise, we will just go round and round in circles. I still think we are a lot closer than you are prepared to make out. Don't let the fear of man take over here. Don't worry, we won't brand you a "One point Calvinist" or anything like that :0) <BR/><BR/>Look forward to seeing you in Ireland. What part did your folks come from? If they were Scotch-Irish Presbyterians...hmmmmmmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1161256981183143762006-10-19T21:23:00.000+10:002006-10-19T21:23:00.000+10:00Colin,The problem is, Colin, we are not merely dis...Colin,<BR/><BR/>The problem is, Colin, we are not merely disputing terms. If that were true, then you would be correct, there would be no real danger. There is still a MAJOR disagreement between us. The fact is Calvinism teaches perseverance is essential part in salvation. That, without the Lord helping Christians persevere, one could lose their salvation. This is a falsehood that lacks understanding as to what took place at salvation. This fact is substantiated by the quotes I provided from leaders within the Calvinism movement. Such as:<BR/><BR/><BR/>RC Sproul<BR/>“In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. (“Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation”?)<BR/><BR/><BR/>J.I. Packer<BR/>“The doctrine declares that the regenerate are saved through persevering in faith and Christian living to the end (Heb. 3:6; 6:11; 10:35-39), and that it is God who keeps them persevering.” <BR/><BR/>John Piper<BR/>“Anyone who puts faith in God's promises bought for us by the blood of Jesus, and is diligent not to throw that faith away, is a part of the people of God.”<BR/><BR/>John MacArthur<BR/>“God's own holiness thus requires perseverance. "God's grace insures<BR/>our persevering`but this does not make it any less our persevering."21<BR/>Believers cannot acquire "the prize of the upward call of God in Christ<BR/>Jesus" unless they "press on toward the goal" (Phil 3:14).”<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/> WE are NOT eternally secure because of perseverance. We are eternally secure because of the finished work of Jesus Christ. My sins CAN NOT be imputed unto me ever again. My previous comment covered this point, of which you made to attempt to refute. <BR/><BR/>This false doctrine, which teaches perseverance is necessary for salvation thus making works an essential to salvation, is dangerous. Anything that adds to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is dangerous. Persevering involves works. Even though Calvinist claim perseverance is all of the Lord, it does not change the fact that it is still their works. <BR/><BR/>Our perseverance is only evidence of salvation, and it is not effectual. It is the RESULT of salvation, and it is not in any way, or part the CAUSE of salvation.<BR/><BR/>As I said to begin with, Calvinism teaches an unscriptural reason for eternal security. This is dangerous! <BR/><BR/> In a month or so, I will move on to the “T” of TULIP. I hope you will keep checking back so we can once again discuss Calvinism. If you would like me to email you once I post, drop me an email and let me know. <BR/><BR/>Side note: Colin, , I do hope to travel to Ireland one day. My great Grandparents came to America from Ireland. If I do, maybe we can get together for lunch and discuss the issue in person. :)Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1161159212558806372006-10-18T18:13:00.000+10:002006-10-18T18:13:00.000+10:00Having been away from the debate for a couple of d...Having been away from the debate for a couple of days and thus able to view it away from the "battleground" I think there is more agreement among the various participants than perhaps supposed. As I see it:<BR/><BR/>Both sides are particularly anxious to prevent easy believism. We both make allowances for true Believers growing cold or falling into individual sins e.g. like David who was plunged into adultery etc., We both accept that all true Believers are in the ongoing process of being sanctified and that this sanctification is not perfect and never will be in this life. But if a *professing* believer produces absolutely no fruit in his life and shows no evidence that he is a child of God (such as the marks given in 1 John) then his words mean very little, if anything, no matter how many times he has walked an isle or said the sinner's prayer. Saving faith always produces good works as an evidence (Ephesians 2:8-10/James 2 etc.,) <BR/><BR/>Calvinists do not believe that men are justified through their sanctified works - justification is by grace through faith in the work of Christ alone - but that such faith effectually produces good works. No praying of mine or serious Bible study or any Christian service or any pious virtue of mine, such as are commanded in the NT, can ever justify me before God. However, we do believe that God's grace will effectually produce such things in the normal course of events in a Believer's life. <BR/><BR/>I wonder are we merely disputing about terms here? If so, then one of the petals of the TULIP is not dangerous as Terry first alleged in his original posting on Calvinism. At least as far as the last of the 5 points are concerned, it poses no serious threat at all, but (since it is but NT Christianity) will prove to be its greatest friend. Even the most faithful ministries see empty professions - our Lord Himself did e.g. Judas Iscariot - but a true ministry, as far as is humanly possible, will not encourage the fruitless professors, but will warn them of their danger. Not because they can lose their justification and hope of glory, but because the evidence points to the fact that they never possessed them in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1161038219145295482006-10-17T08:36:00.000+10:002006-10-17T08:36:00.000+10:00Brian,I agree with you. When a person is saved he...Brian,<BR/><BR/>I agree with you. When a person is saved he is a "new creature."<BR/><BR/>Here is a link from a previous post, where I bring up the same point you are making.<BR/>http://missionary-insights.blogspot.com/2006/03/life-or-no-life-when-lazarus-was.htmlTerry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1161032432795797582006-10-17T07:00:00.000+10:002006-10-17T07:00:00.000+10:00My point wasn't that a believer will always act wi...My point wasn't that a believer will always act with good works. The flesh IS still here, we still do sin - I would be a liar if I said I didn't sin every day.<BR/><BR/>My point, instead, is that the "believer" whose life is utterly unchanged by his faith, who has not stopped sinning in any fashion, who has not born any fruit, there is no reason to believe that person is saved, is there? And furthermore, if a new "believer" sprouts up quickly and produces a variety of good works in a short time after he or she believes, but then subsequently desists completely and falls back into their old ways never to return, do we have reason to believe that person is saved as well? The Bible teaches no. This has nothing to do with them losing their salvation, but instead is evidence that the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in them, which it would (we all agree on this I hope!) if that person were actually saved.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14273753399379839598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160866338998725612006-10-15T08:52:00.000+10:002006-10-15T08:52:00.000+10:00Let me try and give an illustration for my point. ...Let me try and give an illustration for my point.<BR/><BR/><BR/> A man is drowning in the ocean. A boat comes and rescues him from drowning. Once he is in the boat, he is no longer in danger from drowning. However, due to some lingering effects from the time he spent in the water, the man who rescued him takes him to the hospital. There he can be treated for sunburn, and other physical ailments resulting from the being in the water.<BR/><BR/>I was rescued from drowning, in sin, the moment I was placed in Jesus Christ. Just as the man was rescued from drowning the moment he was placed in the boat. I was saved. Sin would not be able to kill me. However, I still have lingering effects from being in sin. I still have an old nature. However, the Father helps me with progressive sanctification, and will one day remove this old body and give me a glorified body. At that moment, all the lingering results of sin will be done away with.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160825327485079912006-10-14T21:28:00.000+10:002006-10-14T21:28:00.000+10:00Within a matter of hours, the Lord had worked ever...Within a matter of hours, the Lord had worked everything out from my last comment. The Lord had a purpose in all of it. I will post what happen tomorrow on my blog, so take the time to read it, if you are interested. <BR/><BR/>Brian thanks for joining the discussion. <BR/> <BR/>First, Steve, I do not disagree necessarily with your interpretation of Romans 4. My post did not take it out of context. But I should have explained it better than I did. You are correct the context is clearly comparing those who are trying to work for their salvation, as compared to those who believe for their salvation. My point was, works has NO effectual role in salvation at all, at any stage. Romans 4 does demonstrate that. <BR/><BR/>As I read your statements, you both seemed to be saying that a Christian will ALWAYS have good works. (Perhaps more so with Steve, than Brian.) The flesh is still here. Paul struggled with it, and so do you. You sin, and so do I. Even Bro MacArthur agrees a Christian can fall into gross immoral sin, but that he will not abide there. He will not utterly fall away! I agree with his assessment. For instance, Lot was a saved man, yet he had times when he was not producing evidence. Steve made the statement there is no such thing as a “carnal Christian.” That is a false unscriptural statement. There are verses that show Christians who are carnal. I was very surprised to see Steve make that statement. Perhaps, I do not understand what you were saying. Here are some verses:<BR/><BR/>(1Co 3:1-3) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?<BR/><BR/>Notice, “YE ARE YET Carnal.” Notice they are “brethren.” That statement was giving under inspiration of God, so these were saved, carnal Christians.<BR/><BR/>Steve said,<BR/><BR/>“Sure justification is the starting point, and without that the other two do not come, but the Bible knows of no justification that does not also have sanctification nor glorification.”<BR/><BR/>My glorification is a result of my salvation. My glorification does not pay for my sins in any way. It was Jesus Christ who paid for my sins. As a result of my salvation, I will be glorified. (Perhaps we are just playing with semantics here and we actually agree on this point.) What I needed, to be saved, was justification and sanctification. Both of which have already taken place. I already have ETERNAL LIFE. It is mine. I am not awaiting my glorification to receive it. If I already have eternal life, then my salvation is complete. <BR/><BR/>Let me try and explain:<BR/>My sins were separating me from God. I am no longer separated from God, nor will I ever be separated from God again. He is abiding in me. That is salvation. He is not waiting on my progressive sanctification to indwell me either, because He has already positionally sanctified me. I have LIFE. This is why the Bibles says we are saved. For instance, Titus 3:5, “according to his mercy He saved us.” I am already saved. Now, there is much that comes with salvation that I am working out. (“work out your own salvation..”) Such as progressive sanctification. My glorification will one day happen because I am saved. These things are only results and play no effectual role. That is impossible, because all my sin debt is already paid and I have Life.<BR/><BR/>Let’s get down to the nuts and bolts of our differences:<BR/><BR/>Colin, Joel and Steve’s comments really hit what our true difference is. The sanctification aspect of salvation. Of which, I do not think we will see eye to eye on until we are in Heaven together. Then we can sit down together and brag as to which one of us is right! (LOL) The Calvinist position maintains that progressive sanctification plays an effectual role in salvation. I believe, progressive sanctification is a result of salvation, and is in no way effectual. My point is that the very thing that separated us from God, thus causing death (sin) has been paid for by Jesus Christ in full. At the time, I placed my faith in Jesus, God through the Spirit indwelled me, giving me life. Thus I am saved. I was immediately freed from the wages of all my sin, as was evidenced by God indwelling me. My then progressive sanctification will be a result of His abiding presence in my life, helping me and giving me the strength to follow Him. My glorification is something I will receive because God has saved me. <BR/><BR/>This is also why the Old Testament saints could not have experienced the indwelling of the Spirit. Their sins were only covered, thus God could not indwell them yet. Their salvation was not complete! (Mine is.) The Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world had yet to be sacrificed and defeat the wages of sin. If any part of my salvation was not complete, God could not indwell me. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Steve,<BR/><BR/>I appreciated your comments. I am glad you decided to post and get in on the discussion. I also appreciate you praying for me and the ministry here. It sounds like you are very busy with family, work and school. I pray the Lord blesses. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Brian and all<BR/>**When quoting scripture on the blog, I would appreciate if all would use KJV. Yes, that is the only Bible I use for the English language. No, I do not believe in Double inspiration. I do believe it is the inspired, infallible, inerrant, Word of God. I believe the Lord preserved His Word. (Much like the Lord helps us to persevere and preserves us blameless. I believe he has done the same with His Word in not even letting a jot or tittle pass away.) Due to the manuscripts used for the other translations, I do not use them. (I am not saying this to start a debate on that issue.)<BR/>ThanksTerry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160794685163171822006-10-14T12:58:00.000+10:002006-10-14T12:58:00.000+10:00It will be little while before I can respomd. Thi...It will be little while before I can respomd. This morning I went to make visits and the my truck broke down. My son and I walked 100 degree heat for just over an hour, before we found a bush truck, to take us home. <BR/><BR/> Please also pray for water for us. We are out of water, as of yesterday, and I do not have my truck to go to the river to get water. We NEED rain. <BR/><BR/>When you are without water it effects every aspect of your life. We do have three trade stores here, and I think one of them will let me use a vehicle to go get water from the river.<BR/><BR/>When I can sit down and concentrate on the replies I will answer, but I have more pressing issues right now. It should be a day or two.<BR/><BR/>Thanks <BR/><BR/>Please pray about my truck and rain.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160791013641788712006-10-14T11:56:00.000+10:002006-10-14T11:56:00.000+10:00Terry, the Westminster states the doctrine very su...Terry, the Westminster states the doctrine very succinctly. Packer’s comments are fine, although I would want to examine the context in which he uses the term “Christian living”. I do know that when he speaks of “persevering faith” it is essentially the same as saying “saving faith”. The doctrine teaches us that those that fall away from the faith did not possess saving faith, and only that faith which is from God is truly “saving faith”, for that genuine faith which is from God does not, in the end, fail, and is therefore “persevering” faith. <BR/><BR/>My biggest problem here you use of the term “effectual” where it is not conventionally used. Did I miss something or have you sourced a reputable Calvinists as ever saying that good works were “effectual to salvation”? Aren’t you putting words in Packer’s mouth that are not there?<BR/><BR/>Besides that, isn’t the whole purpose of your post to paint Calvinism in the bad light of “works salvation”? It’s interesting that historically just the opposite has been true. Calvinists have always been falsely accused of being antinomians, not legalists. I wish the Calvinist strawman would make up his mind which heresy he follows! <BR/><BR/>Yes, if you are saved, then you are saved by persevering faith. What other kind of faith can one be saved by – failing faith? And the source of saving faith? Packer states it very well: “it is God who keeps them persevering”. And I will add: They keep persevering because God keeps preserving them.<BR/><BR/>You have to be a theological acrobat to get works salvation out of that. Isn’t it God that is behind your own sustaining, saving faith?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160780523483525612006-10-14T09:02:00.000+10:002006-10-14T09:02:00.000+10:00My point about Sproul’s statement was that it was ...<I>My point about Sproul’s statement was that it was saying, in effect, without perseverance he would fall away. That is making perseverance effectual in Salvation.</I> <BR/><BR/>Actually, he is saying that with out God's preservation he would fall away. He says specifically that if his salvation were on the basis of perseverance (his faithfulness) he believes he would fall away. God keeps him from falling away. That is preservation not perseverance.<BR/><BR/><I>“Nor is our salvation simply a once-for-all-time thing that happened on the cross,..” WOW! Are you saying the cross is not enough? My salvation is “a once and for all thing” because of the cross. It was there my sins were paid for and there I received the righteousness of God. Therefore I am blameless before God! </I><BR/><BR/>I am not speaking of possibilities, but of realities. Is it possible that the cross would be enough? Sure. But that is not how God designed salvation. It is a three step process. He who has begun a good work in me (the Cross and when it was specifically applied to me when I was converted by the Holy Spirit), will surely see it to completion (glorification, with my sanctification in the middle). Your "justification" is a once and for all thing. Your sanctification is more than just justification. Why? Because sanctification is necessary for salvation. So is glorification. Why? Because God decreed that it be. <BR/><BR/><I>My salvation is already, but my glorification is not yet. </I><BR/><BR/>Not according to the Bible, which conveys your salvation as three components: justification, sanctification and glorification. Each are a part of salvation. No one part is more important than the rest, in that it is the sin qua non. Sure justification is the starting point, and without that the other two do not come, but the Bible knows of no justification that does not also have sanctification nor glorification.<BR/><BR/><I>know I am saved, primarily because I have the Spirit giving me assurance Romans 8:16. I also have assurance because of my faith in the promises God. “Ye shall never perish.” I also have further assurance as a result of my walk with Him. (II Peter 1:8,9)</I><BR/><BR/>Romans 8:16 says that the spirit bears witness, but that didn't answer my question. HOW does the spirit bear witness? By producing fruit. You have assurance because of the promise of God? How do you know that those promises apply to you? Again, if you have fruit you can be assured. If not, you have no biblical basis of assurance.<BR/><BR/><I>As far as the SAVED person, who has faith and no works, I would refer to Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”</I><BR/><BR/>The bible knows of no one who is saved and has no works. I used "faith" (faith in quotes) to denote someone who says they have faith, but there is no fruit. You cannot say that they are still saved and remain biblical, because James explicitly says otherwise, and Paul implies it numerous times. There simply is no such thing as a "carnal Christian." Further, Romans is not saying that the righteous does not work, but that such work cannot merit salvation. You have taken that out of context. If you are giving comfort to church members who have made a confession of faith but fail to produce any kind of fruit then you are giving false comfort. You are, in effect, saying peace, peace where there is no peace.<BR/><BR/><I>I believe a saved person will have change in their life as a result of salvation. (II Cor 5:17) How can they not </I><BR/><BR/>I must go one further. If they do not (have a change in their lives), then, according to Scripture, they have not been saved. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I will be out of town this weekend until Sunday. I also have a pretty hefty test this week that I should be studying for. And two papers that aren't going to write themselves... And kids, and work, and, and. So, I hope you will forgive me if I bow out for a bit. I would like to close by saying that I see no evidence that the Reformed men you quote believe that their salvation in total is caused by perseverance. Nor do I believe that any of the standards of the Reformed faith, the chief being the Bible, teach such a doctrine. I do believe works are a necessary out growth of salvation, that works are an integral part of sanctification, and that if no works are found what-so-ever, the person in question has no right to be assured of their salvation. <BR/><BR/>I do feel that the primary issue is a misunderstanding of the three "stages" of salvation and what role works play in that. In addition, we are discussing an issue which is based upon a foundation of systematic thinking. If our foundations differ, is it any wonder that our conclusions based upon those foundations differ? And please don't say (anyone) that your foundation is the Bible, because I don't know of anyone who has not been led in his or her understanding of Scripture by using other sources to illuminate scripture (and some, I believe, actually do just that). But therein lies the problem. I am convinced that the Reformed system of theology is the one that accurately reflects the Bible. You are convinced that the system of theology that you learned (you or anyone, whatever that systems name) accurately reflects the Bible. Debating side issues might cause one or the other of us to realize that our system is unbiblical (which is what happened to me to "convert" me to the Reformed faith). More often than not, however, we will just end up agreeing to disagree (at best, hating one another at worst) because our basic assumptions are do different. <BR/><BR/>I pray that God will do a mighty work in you and through you in Papua New Guinea. From what I have read, He is, has and shall. I will continue to pray for you, and for the youth that you are working with. Ultimately, you believe that it is God who saves, and that is good. I urge you to continue to focus on the main thing: proclaiming the whole gospel to the world. It may be a week or more until I can devote more of this kind of time to this issue. If you have reason to believe that I seriously misspoke and want to clarify anything, you can email me at stevetip@yahoo.com <BR/><BR/>May God Keep You and Bless You!<BR/><BR/>SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160772914727493752006-10-14T06:55:00.000+10:002006-10-14T06:55:00.000+10:00I don't think we are far off on this doctrine, but...I don't think we are far off on this doctrine, but how much does it take for Christ's work to be of no effect until you? Steve says Packer is wrong in what his statement says; that's good. He says that this statement is Scriptural: "To be saved, you must produce works." <BR/><BR/>I believe there is confusion in the Hebrews warning passages. They are warning concerning apostasy. A believer cannot apostatize. The just shall live by faith---they cannot but live by faith. They are also not ones who will apostatize, but believe. So those warnings aren't to believers but to apostates. Should believers examine themselves to be sure they are not apostates? Sure. But we don't continue in order to be saved, we continue because we are saved.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160756163321992042006-10-14T02:16:00.000+10:002006-10-14T02:16:00.000+10:00Concerning your point #2 above:"As far as the SAVE...Concerning your point #2 above:<BR/><BR/>"As far as the SAVED person, who has faith and no works, I would refer to Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” "<BR/><BR/>The Bible clearly teaches that without fruit people will not go to heaven. <BR/><BR/>Hebrews 12:14, "Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."<BR/><BR/>Romans 8:l3, "If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."<BR/><BR/>Galatians 5:l9-2l, "Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not enter the kingdom of God." (See also Ephesians 5:5 and l Corinthians 6:l0.)<BR/><BR/>Does bearing fruit earn your way into heaven? No - bearing fruit is only by God's grace, as a result of the indwelt Spirit. But if your sin has been forgiven by Jesus, you will bear fruit and persevere. Only Jesus' blood gets you into heaven, not your works in any way. Even so, if you don't have those works it's a sign that your faith isn't real, because real faith produces a holy life. This is my understanding of what the Bible teaches.<BR/><BR/>I heard it once put this way, "If faith could exist apart from works, which it cannot, it would be sufficient to save."<BR/><BR/>How can you Biblically claim a person who says he has faith but has no works will go to heaven in light of the numerous warning passages in the Epistles and Christ's own teaching? I am very interested.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14273753399379839598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160739232562836742006-10-13T21:33:00.000+10:002006-10-13T21:33:00.000+10:00Steve,First, please feel free to respond to others...Steve,<BR/><BR/>First, please feel free to respond to others. Don’t think you have to only answer my questions because this is my blog. Kent Brandenburg is a much respected pastor and author. He is in California. I would consider him a scholar. He is very knowledgeable.<BR/><BR/>My point about Sproul’s statement was that it was saying, in effect, without perseverance he would fall away. That is making perseverance effectual in Salvation. I can never fall away from God. Not because he helps me to persevere, but because he has already imputed all my sin unto Jesus and has given me His righteousness. I have already received eternal life. Eternal life is not awaiting my glorification. I already have it.<BR/><BR/>As far as this statement, you need to clarify your point before I respond:<BR/>“God doesn't just do a once-for-me thing on Calvary and then depart to polish the watch-works.”<BR/><BR/>I am presented “blameless before God” because of Jesus Christ, not as a result of my persevering. <BR/><BR/>Christians do stumble (sin), although yes, there is no reason why they should. According to I Corinthians 10:13, God is always there to provide the strength I need to overcome. However, there are times when my flesh is in control and I stumble (sin). Romans chapter 7 expounds on the point I am trying to make. “The good that I would I do not, yet the evil which I would not that I do.” “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” My spirit now has life because of salvation, but the flesh is still present. <BR/><BR/>“Nor is our salvation simply a once-for-all-time thing that happened on the cross,..” WOW! Are you saying the cross is not enough? My salvation is “a once and for all thing” because of the cross. It was there my sins were paid for and there I received the righteousness of God. Therefore I am blameless before God!<BR/><BR/>My salvation is already, but my glorification is not yet. <BR/><BR/>Now on to your questions.<BR/><BR/>1.) ”You say your sins were purged by Jesus Christ. What specifically was purged? If, on or about A.D. 32 or so, Terry's sins were purged, how is it that you still sin?”<BR/><BR/>Jesus Christ paid the penalty of all my sin at the cross and thus purged my sins. So my sins were purged. This does not mean I will now be sinless. My sins, which I commit, will not be imputed unto me, because God has already imputed them unto Jesus. (Romans 4:8) Therefore, I will not be held on judgment for any sin I commit. My sins have already been judged at Calvary. Purged does not mean God has taken away the ability to sin, just that he has taken away the penalty of my sin. He has cleansed/purged me of my sin. Romans chapter five is a great chapter. It shows us that as a result of the disobedience of one (Adam), many were made sinners. And that how because of the obedience of one (Jesus), many shall be MADE righteous. I am righteous before God because of Jesus Christ, not because of my perseverance.<BR/><BR/>2.) "How do you know that you are saved? I want to see how you answer the question that Sproul and the others were trying to answer. What do you say to the person who has "faith" but no works?"<BR/><BR/>I know I am saved, primarily because I have the Spirit giving me assurance Romans 8:16. I also have assurance because of my faith in the promises God. “Ye shall never perish.” I also have further assurance as a result of my walk with Him. (II Peter 1:8,9)<BR/><BR/>As far as the SAVED person, who has faith and no works, I would refer to Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” <BR/><BR/>Now there are plenty of people who have made a vain profession who exhibit no evidence of salvation. To those, they need to be born-again. (Born-again - another topic we could debate at another time. :) )<BR/><BR/>I believe a saved person will have change in their life as a result of salvation. (II Cor 5:17) How can they not! The Spirit of God now indwells them! Their spirit now has life. But, again none of this is effectual for salvation, only evidence of salvation.<BR/><BR/>3. "What, specifically, are you saved from? How, specifically, are you saved from that? What makes you different from the person who claims to be saved, but lives a life that is not indicative of salvation?"<BR/><BR/>I am saved from the penalty of sin. I am saved from an everlasting torment, eternally separated from God. I am saved by repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (As of June 30th 1982!) <BR/><BR/>If the person claiming to be saved, is saved, he will be under the chastisement of God. (Heb 12:6,7) I am not. If he is not saved, he is under the wrath of God. (John 3:36) Again, here too, I am not.Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22072310.post-1160735977636720522006-10-13T20:39:00.000+10:002006-10-13T20:39:00.000+10:00Colin,I will reply to your post in the morning. I...Colin,<BR/><BR/>I will reply to your post in the morning. I have had a long day and need to get to bed. Between finishing my sermon for Sunday, and this discussion I am wore out!<BR/><BR/>Please, if you can, respond to Kent. I would like to see what you think about his comments.<BR/><BR/>Also, I appreciate the manner in which Steven and Colin are discussing this with Kent and I. Not too many debates, concerning Calvinism, stay friendly!Terry McGovernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785714020219737129noreply@blogger.com